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  1. strypey strypey

    @mjd @jeffcliff Even right-libertarians are now looking into #
    http://qttr.at/1t4r

    about a month ago from quitter.se
    1. jeffcliff jeffcliff

      @strypey @mjd alas, that page is behind the #

      about a month ago from quitter.se
      1. strypey strypey

        @jeffcliff what's the "greatcloudwall"?

        about a month ago from quitter.se
      2. strypey strypey

        @jeffcliff @mjd what about this archived version of the # article? Formatting is a bit shredded but text is there
        http://qttr.at/1tbe

        about a month ago from quitter.se
        1. jeffcliff jeffcliff

          @strypey @mjd 1) there are principle/agent problems all over the place, not limited to creation of loans / LIBOR-like manipulation

          about a month ago from quitter.se
          1. jeffcliff jeffcliff

            @mjd @strypey 2) taxes only drive money insofar as long as there is consent for them and are not the only drivers

            about a month ago from quitter.se
            1. jeffcliff jeffcliff

              @mjd @strypey 3) there are NP-complete problems inherent in fractional reserve banking/investment & constraints can hit in black swan events

              about a month ago from quitter.se
              1. jeffcliff jeffcliff

                @mjd @strypey 4) yes the government can print their way out of debt, and destroy money via taxes but doing both allocates power&breaks trust

                about a month ago from quitter.se
                1. jeffcliff jeffcliff

                  @mjd @strypey 5) In general, MMT only works as long as people don't know about MMT.  Once awareness of MMT is sufficient, all bets are off

                  about a month ago from quitter.se
                2. strypey strypey

                  @jeffcliff @mjd as long as we agree, while it may not be ideal, that state issue and destruction (via taxes) of money is how money works now

                  about a month ago from quitter.se
                  1. strypey strypey

                    @mjd @jeffcliff then we can start to discuss possible alternatives, grounded in reality, not goldbug myths (anti-semitic or otherwise)

                    about a month ago from quitter.se
                  2. jeffcliff jeffcliff

                    @strypey @mjd ... was how money worked until 2008 when Satoshi gave us another model

                    about a month ago from quitter.se
                    1. strypey strypey

                      *sigh* we've been through this @jeffcliff . Just wanting cryptocurrency to be the dominant trade currency does not magically make it so

                      about a month ago from quitter.se
                      1. strypey strypey

                        @jeffcliff what Satoshi gave us was a new technology, just like the credit card was once a new technology, and PayPal, and the debit card

                        about a month ago from quitter.se
                        1. strypey strypey

                          @jeffcliff none of these magically changed the political-economic power relationships that money represents, and neither has cryptocurrency

                          about a month ago from quitter.se
                3. Matthew Davidson mjd

                  @jeffcliff This is incoherent. All government-issued financial assets are public sector debt and private sector credit. "Printing money" to pay off debt (assume you mean bonds) replaces one form of debt with another. Public debt is a useful thing, and never needs to be paid off.

                  about a month ago from web
                  1. jeffcliff jeffcliff

                    @mjd And we never need to free slaves, either who are also useful.  Doesn't mean we shouldn't.It's useful at ensnaring people into statusquo

                    about a month ago from quitter.se
                    1. strypey strypey

                      @jeffcliff your arguments imply that @mjd and I advocate for the status quo, and that we there need to justify it.

                      about a month ago from quitter.se
                      1. strypey strypey

                        @jeffcliff I can't speak for @mjd but I'm not advocating for it, I'm just saying that it's still the status quo. States have power over $

                        about a month ago from quitter.se
                        1. strypey strypey

                          @mjd @jeffcliff although it may one day #, doesn't change that any more than the other technologies I listed.

                          about a month ago from quitter.se
                          1. strypey strypey

                            @mjd @jeffcliff because what needs to change is not (just) the technology of money, but the political-economic power that enforces its value

                            about a month ago from quitter.se
                            1. strypey strypey

                              @mjd @jeffcliff this is the point I've been making it different forms through this whole dialogue, and one you seem totally unable to grasp

                              about a month ago from quitter.se
                              1. strypey strypey

                                @mjd @jeffcliff in one of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy books some idiots declare leaves to be currency, making them all millionaires

                                about a month ago from quitter.se
                                1. strypey strypey

                                  @mjd @jeffcliff without a corresponding change in political-economic power, crypo$ are doing this, powerlessly declaring value to exist

                                  about a month ago from quitter.se
                                  1. jeffcliff jeffcliff

                                    @strypey @mjd That's an argument for early 2009 when there was no actual ongoing trade not for when there's B$+ per day in trade going on

                                    about a month ago from quitter.se
                                    1. jeffcliff jeffcliff

                                      @mjd @strypey It's a small yet compared to state economies but making up ground

                                      about a month ago from quitter.se
                                  2. strypey strypey

                                    @mjd @jeffcliff and *please* don't reply that unlike leaves # are finite, I know that, but crypto$ in general are not

                                    about a month ago from quitter.se
                                    1. strypey strypey

                                      @mjd @jeffcliff there are new crytpo$ foaming into existence all the time, deflating the *perceived* (thus real) spending power of them all

                                      about a month ago from quitter.se
                                      1. jeffcliff jeffcliff

                                        @strypey @mjd the underlying value of the *cpu cycles* is still have limit. A limit the other crypto$s can open up more access to

                                        about a month ago from quitter.se
                                        1. jeffcliff jeffcliff

                                          @mjd @strypey (and other scarce backing-stuff like memory)

                                          about a month ago from quitter.se
                                          1. strypey strypey

                                            @jeffcliff at the risk of sounding patronising, please read the whole sequence of arguments and digest them, then compose your reply

                                            about a month ago from quitter.se
                                            1. strypey strypey

                                              @jeffcliff your responses make sense in the context of each chunk of the argument but are often already addressed and debunked in the whole

                                              about a month ago from quitter.se
                                              1. strypey strypey

                                                @jeffcliff also, please implicitly include everything discussed in this *long* thread in the arguments I make, or we go in endless circles

                                                about a month ago from quitter.se
                                                1. strypey strypey

                                                  @jeffcliff perhaps this topic is just too complex to be discussed in 140char chunks? How about you re-read my blog post and blog a response?

                                                  about a month ago from quitter.se
                                                  1. strypey strypey

                                                    @jeffcliff then I'll read your blog post a couple of times, and blog my own response

                                                    about a month ago from quitter.se
                            2. jeffcliff jeffcliff

                              @strypey @mjd And at this point that's mostly a matter of change in awareness of what's possible.

                              about a month ago from quitter.se
                            3. paulfree14 paulfree14

                              @strypey I would argue that we need to get rid of money at all. it's just nonsence but came somhow status quo. using money always implice a specific logic (trading and abstract value. several dynamics are then rolled out within our society. And there is no di

                              about a month ago from gnusocial.de
                              1. strypey strypey

                                @paulfree14 a brief history of money can be found in a blog piece I did a few weeks back
                                http://qttr.at/1r0a

                                about a month ago from quitter.se
                                1. strypey strypey

                                  @paulfree14 Developers don't necessarily need to be paid but they do need to be fed, housed, and clothed, and supplied with PCs and internet

                                  about a month ago from quitter.se
                                  1. strypey strypey

                                    @paulfree14 I support the concept of providing these things without using money, but be aware this is a hugely ambitious project

                                    about a month ago from quitter.se
                                    1. strypey strypey

                                      @paulfree14 I've thought about 'cybercommunes' inhabited by a combo of gardeners and geeks (and maybe some folk who fit both categories)

                                      about a month ago from quitter.se
                                      1. strypey strypey

                                        @paulfree14 the gardeners grow food & maintain stuff on the land, and the geeks work remotely to bring in $ to cover unavoidable cash costs

                                        about a month ago from quitter.se
                    2. Matthew Davidson mjd

                      @jeffcliff What? All the dollars and cents, all the pounds and pence, are slaves that will never be free, until the government calls them all in for euthanasia?

                      about a month ago from web
                    3. Matthew Davidson mjd

                      @jeffcliff When we get rid of the foul injustice of state currency, what then for the status quo? Does the Ayn Rand Übermensch open his # wallet and direct us all far more efficiently than democracy ever could?

                      about a month ago from web
                    4. Matthew Davidson mjd

                      @jeffcliff On reflection, I think that's the sad juvenile fantasy of # That heroic individualists can now painlessly "go Galt" and be relieved of involvement in politics or society or humanity. A technological fix for the problem of other people.

                      about a month ago from web
                      1. jeffcliff jeffcliff

                        @mjd alas this is not the case. One does not simply escape politics.

                        about a month ago from quitter.se
                        1. jeffcliff jeffcliff

                          2016 : https://quitter.se/url/3718399 @mjd

                          about a month ago from quitter.se
    2. Matthew Davidson mjd

      @strypey Core # is just a description of how the monetary system works by definition, so everybody would do well to accept it. It doesn't necessarily preclude advocating small government Malthusianism, but it does require new honesty about the motivation for doing so.

      about a month ago from web
      1. strypey strypey

        @mjd it does preclude the goldbug myths and the anti-semitic angle on bank critique that seem so common in right-liberty and truther circles

        about a month ago from quitter.se
        1. strypey strypey

          @mjd I took that article as a hopeful sign that the # might be on the verge of turning around and heading back to planet Earth

          about a month ago from quitter.se
        2. Matthew Davidson mjd

          @strypey I don't move in those circles, thankfully. # has an advantage in demystifying money and banking as just the great national spreadsheet: nobody pretends our retail banks aren't a government-blessed cartel, so it's easier to look upon the system as a unitary whole.

          about a month ago from web
          1. strypey strypey

            @mjd it's hard to be online and be completely untouched by those circles, think of our discussion here with Jeff Cliff

            about a month ago from quitter.se