Conversation

Notices

  1. strypey strypey

    @yukiame @mjd "is the State also only a market actor". No. The state is a governing body that claims a monopoly of violence over a territory

    about 3 months ago from quitter.se
    1. strypey strypey

      @mjd @yukiame states used this monopoly to invent markets as a decentralized tool for provisioning large standing armies
      http://qttr.at/1r0a

      about 3 months ago from quitter.se
      1. strypey strypey

        @mjd @yukiame similar to the way states developed a lot of the technology behind the internet for military objectives
        http://qttr.at/1rmk

        about 3 months ago from quitter.se
        1. strypey strypey

          @mjd @yukiame states still defines and enforces the legal frameworks  (eg property rights)  that allow markets to function

          about 3 months ago from quitter.se
          1. strypey strypey

            @mjd @yukiame this is why # is used more like a bond than a currency, a speculative investment in which rich people can stash wealth

            about 3 months ago from quitter.se
            1. jeffcliff jeffcliff

              @strypey @mjd @yukiame storing wealth is important in a world with negative interest rates.  Savings allow for long term planning.

              about 2 months ago from quitter.se
              1. Matthew Davidson mjd

                @jeffcliff There's nothing objective about the world which necessitates negative interest rates; it's a policy decision made by governments "pushing on a string" to try to spur investment after 30 years of neoliberal deindustrialisation.

                about 2 months ago from web
              2. Matthew Davidson mjd

                @jeffcliff # rightly said that savings are a hedge against uncertainty. Unfortunately, since his time, governments taxing but not spending have drained savings out of the private sector, so now credit cards ("debtfare") are the safety net.

                about 2 months ago from web
                1. strypey strypey

                  @mjd "debtfare" wouldn't be so bad if states weren't making it harder and harder to declare bankruptcy, restarting the game as a new player

                  about 2 months ago from quitter.se
                2. strypey strypey

                  @mjd BTW I rechecked my blog post on the history of money. Nothing in there about states having to tax to spend. Once of us was confused?

                  about 2 months ago from quitter.se
                  1. Matthew Davidson mjd

                    @strypey It was the "find another way to fund the social functions currently overseen by governments" bit which, granted, doesn't _necessarily_ imply that taxes fund anything. "another way to conduct the social functions" might be better.

                    about 2 months ago from web
                    1. strypey strypey

                      @mjd ah, ok, I see the ambiguity. What I meant was *states* as a way of funding those functions, as opposed to using businesses or commons

                      about 2 months ago from quitter.se
                      1. strypey strypey

                        @mjd I'd prefer replacing states *and* corporations with commons and peer production, but that's only going to happen if a majority agree

                        about 2 months ago from quitter.se
                        1. strypey strypey

                          @mjd that's why I say we all implicitly agree to pay tax, by *not* agreeing to replace states with another system for public provisioning

                          about 2 months ago from quitter.se
                  2. Matthew Davidson mjd

                    @strypey But don't take my advice on prose style. I'm a student; just a machine for extruding long convoluted sentences under pressure.

                    about 2 months ago from web
                  3. jeffcliff jeffcliff

                    @strypey @mjd link?

                    about 2 months ago from quitter.se
                    1. strypey strypey

                      @jeffcliff http://qttr.at/1r0a

                      about 2 months ago from quitter.se
    2. Matthew Davidson mjd

      @yukiame @strypey Currency-issuing states never need to tax in anything but their own currency. Taxes don't finance spending; spending finances taxes. Where else would the first $ taxed come from? #

      about 3 months ago from web
      1. clacke clacke

        @mjd @strypey @yukiame The Hong Kong money supply comes from foreign currency. The M0 is required to be 100% backed by currency reserves. As the HKD is pegged to the USD, I'm assuming the entire reserve is USD.

        about 3 months ago from social.heldscal.la
        1. Matthew Davidson mjd

          @clacke @strypey @yukiame & everyone in the Eurozone is using a foreign currency not issued by a state at all. # had a better solution to what the Euro or USD pegging tries to fix: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bancor

          about 3 months ago from web
          1. clacke clacke

            @mjd @strypey EUR is a traditional state-issued currency except the state isn't a state. Isn't # just a bigger Euro?

            about 3 months ago from social.heldscal.la
            1. Matthew Davidson mjd

              @clacke Nope. The Bancor wouldn't be street money. It's just for settling international transactions. Member states would retain fiscal sovereignty. i.e. they issue ("spend") & redeem ("tax") local currency as they wish. #

              about 3 months ago from web
          2. strypey strypey

            @mjd @clacke so the HK dollar is backed by the violence monopoly of the US state, which seems right since the HK state doesn't have one.

            about 3 months ago from quitter.se
            1. strypey strypey

              @mjd @clacke the Euro is backed by the violence monopoly of NATO, which is backed up by the violence monopoly of the EU states and the US

              about 3 months ago from quitter.se
              1. clacke clacke

                @strypey Yes. What monopoly on force would be behind the #?

                about 3 months ago from social.heldscal.la
                1. strypey strypey

                  @clacke good question. Let me answer it with a question. What would guarantee its value as a currency? The the answer to that is your answer

                  about 3 months ago from quitter.se
    3. clacke clacke

      @strypey ... while also being a market actor. State goes "Here, I'll uphold law, order and defense of property and otherwise stay out. Except I'll be a monopsony on 50% of the goods and services, by taxing the other 50%.".

      about 3 months ago from social.heldscal.la